Guess We're Getting a (Trade) War With China Whether We Wanted It or Not

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion & War Issues' started by quoththeraven, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. purplekow

    purplekow Regent

    By the way, mr trump does not run US foreign policy, at least not yet. We need to start looking forward not pointing fingers back.
    mr trump needs to realize that he will represent all the American people and its policies. He needs to realize it. Bozo needs to realize it. The minority of Americans who elected him need to realize it. He has reportedly said that he did not realize how big a job being president would be. Even he knows he is out of his depth and one hopes he has the wherewithal to learn. He needs to learn the rules of the game and at least try to prepare.

    When he speaks to the Prime Minister of the UK he really needs to be aware that she is not just going to drop by and let him knows she is coming. They are not going to the club to have drinks.

    When he speaks to the Prime Minister of Pakistan he cannot make obliquely racially offensive remarks and then offer US support which if given would change the balance of power in the region.
    quoththeraven and WilliamM like this.
  2. purplekow

    purplekow Regent

    By the way, he actually submitted to the threat of Carrier leaving rather than suggesting a surtax on their products. He spoke against this type of government intervention during his campaign.
    And there will be fewer jobs at Carrier just not as many fewer. The total number of jobs not lost, is less than 900, the number of jobs created is 0.
  3. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Seems China is blaming Taiwan for the call and not mad at Trump. Interesting that if the President of China can talk to the President of Taiwan, as the article notes, the Trump/Taiwan call should not be a big deal.

    From my business dealings in both Taiwan and China, the economies of both are now intertwined. Many of the factories in China with which I dealt were Taiwan owned. Air service and trade between the two has been on going for years. There are both formal and informal governmental ties between China and Taiwan.

    What this seems to be is an attempt to critize absolutely everything Trump does. In this case, President Obama can meet with the Delai Lama and sell arms to Taiwan with no complaints about insulting China and starting a trade war but receiving a phone call from the head of Taiwan is enough to drive people to make the that claim about Trump.

    There is plenty there to legitimately critize about Trump's actions like cabinet picks that to critize absolutely everything he does simply devaluates the legitimate critism.
    Charlie likes this.
  4. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Jobs "saved" is something the Obama administration started to tout about the stimulus. Originally, the stimulus talk from the administration was about creating jobs, as the numbers fell short, the administration began to talk about creating and saving jobs. If the administration can count jobs saved as an accomplishment, then so can Trump:

    As for the count of jobs "saved" there are several figures floating about. The factory jobs seems to be slightly less than 900 but there are white collar office jobs "saved" as well of a few hundred. I expect the exact numbers will be released in the near future as the dust settles.
  5. WilliamM

    WilliamM Regent

    So predictable.

    BOZO T CLOWN Count

    Earth shattering news: Taiwan's president called congratulating president elect Trump. Daniel Drezner and Jessica Meckler don't like Liberals are running around, flailing their arms and going insane. Give me a break.

    The American left is trying to make a big deal out of this. The fact is Obama instigated many provocative acts towards China including having breakfast with the Dalai Lama. The HYSTERIA surrounding this is laughable. Didn't hear a peep from liberal professors and the head of a democrat superPac then.

    Mr. Trump was elected to ruuffle the feathers of the status quo. Mr. Trump is strengthening Freedom by Talking to Free Taiwan. Mr. Trump is not afraid to talk to the leader of another popularly elected government. And if libs don't like it, then they should send an e-mail to Keith Ellison, Elizabeth Warren or Nancy Pelosi to

    President Elect Trump will implement the National Security Strategy of the US in a manner that Obama has not been able to do in 8 years of an abysmal presidency. Obama has made the US a laughing stock on the world stage. When General Mattis takes over the DOD the National Military Strategy will be implemented in a matter that will strike fear in the heart of our enemies.

    America Will Be Great Again
    48 days to go


  7. purplekow

    purplekow Regent

    trump has a big advantage over Obama in the creation of jobs....thousands are going to be hired to undo his diplomatic gaffes. In a carefully worded message, China responded to the Taiwan phone call. While demeaning the Taiwanese president, China said that if mr trump wishes to undo the one China policy of the US, he will not have time to do anything else. Taiwan diplomatic relations are complicated due to the One China policy, recognizing only the Beijing government diplomatically, while the US has a vigorous trade policy including weaponry which has gone on since Reagan.

    As far as jobs go, 178,000 new jobs in November. Those numbers need to be carefully examined, but clearly they exceed the 900 less jobs lost which is being trumpeted as a huge accomplishment and which involved a subsidiary of a military supplier in the vice president's home state.
    bigvalboy and quoththeraven like this.
  8. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Clearly you have learned from your role model Kenny: when you do not have a good direct answer/response, attack the other poster :)

    Sorry, I expected better from you. Your Kenny-like answer is beneath your normal standard :(

    Now if you have a good response as to why a phone call to the leader of Taiwan is a worse affront to China than selling them $1.83 billion of military equipment, I would like to hear it.
  9. Check your facts.

    1. Obama saved many more jobs and got hardly any credit for it after the Bush administration left him the mess without making a decision. And spare me the "GM and Chrysler could go through bankruptcy proceedings." Do you not realize that most reorganizations wind up as liquidations or the likelihood that some or all of their core businesses would be sold to the highest bidder?

    Do you not realize that the highest bidder might not be based in the US and might well move jobs somewhere cheaper?

    Do you not realize that filing for bankruptcy allows union contracts to be disavowed, thus eroding the job and wage protections current workers have?

    Do you not realize that months of uncertainty can be as bad for employees as losing one's job and that it's a good way to lose the best employees, who will have the easiest time looking for and finding jobs elsewhere?

    2. It is widely believed that the decision was made because United Technologies Inc., Carrier's parent company, was either fearful of or was directly threatened with the loss of federal contracts. If true, this would amount to extortion, blackmail or bribery. The reason I believe this is likely true is that it is consistent with Trump's past behavior of bluster, filing frivolous lawsuits for personal and strategic reasons, and intimidation.

    You may be fine with the President-elect acting this way on behalf of all of us. I am not.

    Also, PK is right about the current state of the US economy. Obama inherited a mess and leaves with an economy that is overall in good shape.

    To quote: On the campaign trail, Donald Trump repeatedly described the U.S. economy as a hollowed-out disaster of high unemployment and stagnant growth.

    But the latest numbers show the president-elect will in fact inherit a fairly robust economy with the lowest jobless rate in nearly a decade, record home and stock prices and a healthy growth rate.

    It’s a radically different position from the one President-elect Barack Obama found himself in 2008 with markets crashing, the financial crisis spinning out of control and joblessness headed toward 10 percent.

    Trump instead will take office with an economy near full employment and wages and spending rising. The economy is in such strong shape that the Federal Reserve is likely to raise interest rates again later this month to try and cool things off.

    “President-elect Trump will inherit a much stronger economy than his predecessor did,” Standard & Poor’s economists said this week. “Largely forgotten in all the rhetoric and fanfare of the campaign is the fact that data show the world's largest economy continuing to expand at a reasonably good pace.”

    (Oh, and Bozo, before you make your usual post-factual argument about the source, Politico is so slanted/left/whatever, blahblahblah: argue with ratings agency Standard & Poor, which is a non-partisan commercial endeavor. Engage with the facts in the article or expect your opinion to be dismissed because it's not responsive to the facts.)

    That some people yearn for the past -- good manufacturing jobs that they might as well whistle for and a more homogeneous society that still centered around them and their culture -- or thought that by voting for Trump they were voting for change in Washington doesn't change that.

    Are 1,000 (or whatever) jobs that the President-elect strongarmed a long-run benefit? We'll see. It's an immediate PR win, sure. What will happen if we engage in a trade war with China? I don't think the answer is as simple as some seem to think.
    bashful and bigvalboy like this.
  10. I don't and can't speak for @WilliamM, but that you fail to see that China/Taiwan is strategically more important than China/Tibet is dismaying. Tibet, and the Dalai Lama, are important because of the intersection of religious freedom, China's imperialism and our professed belief in self-determination. In international relations, more slack is given diplomatic partners for internal governance, though not complete slack. It's a delicate balance.

    The issue between the PRC and Taiwan is not religious freedom or cultural and political hegemony over an outpost that isn't Chinese. It is over who actually represents the Chinese people. The long and the short of it is that the Communist rebels led by Mao won and ran the Kuomintang out of the mainland. The mainland matters more politically and economically. For good or for bad, it also represents the vast majority of Chinese and is one of our largest trading partners. We can have little to no effect on them without diplomatic relations. That's why Carter, I'm sure with some reluctance, decided to give full recognition to the PRC and cut diplomatic relations with Taiwan.

    That taking a call from the president of a country with which your country has no diplomatic ties will cause a diplomatic flap, at the very least, should come as no surprise to anyone, including you. If you think a diplomatic flap (or worse) is no big deal, that's fine. But to equate it to things that are not equatable is disingenuous at best.

    As for selling arms, that's what countries do. China sells arms to countries we would prefer it not to. If China criticizes us for that, it opens itself up to tit-for-tat complaints.

    No one has a responsibility to educate you about this. I expected you to have more of a grasp of realpolitik in foreign relations than you are showing.
    bigvalboy and WilliamM like this.
  11. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Whatever response China gives on any issue, there are a few things to remember:
    1-China is not a democracy and can give a single, official response to any event. On the other hand, a democracy is "messy" and usually a single response is impossible as the Trump/Taiwan phone call event shows.

    2-China's government is laser focused on what it thinks is best for them in every situation be it Tibet, Taiwan, military sales to Taiwan, South Sea "islands," currency values, trade and investment, the number of children you can have, etc. Everything is in service to the state's goals and there is no plurality of goals: one goal-what the government thinks is best.

    3-The Chinese government takes a very long term view and since its goals are well defined and continuous over time, they can keep working toward their aim; with our elections, our government has a much shorter time frame for its goals. [Chinese goals can change as when it moved toward capitalism but these changes do not occur frequently]

    4-Watch how China treats Hong Kong for an idea of what they have in mind for Taiwan.

    5-the government of China can be ruthless in its crushing of opposition to its long term goals in ways that we can not imagine. Remember that China is no democracy and in the political area, the Party and government are still all powerful.

    So it appears that China officially has let Trump off the hook for any blame for the phone call by pinning the blame on the Taiwn leadership while in this country, the opposition to Trump finds it another excuse to attack him. Two different systems, two different results.
    Charlie likes this.
  12. pubic_assistance

    pubic_assistance Viscount

    Big Joey makes the point. To say a phone call is "dangerous" ....makes you sound ridiculously uninformed. For starters the phone call CAME from Taiwan, not the other way around. Trump is NOT YET President, so taking a call of congratulations, was not the same as a diplomatic mission between the two nations. Trump was elected to SHAKE THINGS UP in Washington. Ignoring the hypocrisy of selling Taiwan Billions of dollars worth of military goods, but pretending we aren't on speaking terms is a good place to start shaking.
  13. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    "Internal governance" applies to Tibet but not Taiwan? You clearly know no one from Tibet who sees Tibet as an independent country with its own culture, ethnic population. Those like the Delai Lama would differ with you over China's right to control Tibet. Chinese control over Tibet is an 18th century event so fairly "recent" in that country's long history; that control ended in 1912 and came back to Chinese control when the People's Liberation Army in 1950 came to Tibet.

    The Chinese control of Taiwan is "recent" and a good argument can be made that historically is is not part of China and "internal governance" not apply to Chinese control. Taiwan was independent until the 17th century when the Dutch colonized it; the Chinese started immigrating to the island and by the end of the 17th century the Chinese had defeated the Dutch and integrated the island into the Chinese empire. Then in the late 19th century, China ceded the island to Japan and after World War II, China took control again. While ethnic Chinese flooded the island with the Kuomintang fleeing the mainland, there are still large ethnic groups of native Taiwaneese who want the Chinese out and a return of their ancestral homeland (think Native American Indians).

    Yes, strategically speaking, Tibet is of little value to us. You are correct. But both Tibet and Taiwan were independent before "fairly recent" history considered them "internal" areas of China.

    Yes, in diplomacy, normally "slack" is given to a country over its "internal affairs" but do you think the world should ignore how North Korea treats it citizens? Should the world have ignored how South Africa treated its black citizens? Should the world ignore how Iran treats homosexuals? Should the world ignore Russia's actions absorbing part of the Ukraine? I think people will differ on where lines are drawn.

    From the Chinese statements at the time President Obama approved the sale of $1.83 billion in military equipment to Taiwan, it does not appear they considered it "tat-for-tat." Their statements were very strong in condemning that sale.
  14. bostonman

    bostonman Earl

    I'll put it another way. I do have a real fear that, despite all this "Apprentice"-style hype over cabinet appointments, that trump is going to be inclined to act impulsively and on his own, unless people can forcibly reign him in. All of these "well, he's not a politician" excuses always rang hollow to me during the campaign, and that same excuse will start to take its toll now that it seems he thinks he can really just do whatever he wants, simply unaware (and unheeding of) any potential consequences. Kellyanne Conway keeps assuring us that he's "always fully briefed" on everything - I'm sorry, I just don't believe that. I think that's a cover (i.e. just an outright lie).

    You know - I'm sure we've all done that kind of thing where we buy a new electronic gadget or something that needs assembly/setup/etc, and we go about trying to set it up without the instructions - ("oh, I don't need the manual...") - until we get into some sort of snag and find out that had we followed the instructions from the beginning, we would have been just fine? Sometimes that can be funny, sometimes it can be annoying, and occasionally it might mean we've done something irreparable. But ultimately, it's a problem that only affects us individually. Doing this kind of thing as President has too many consequences that affect the world.

    If trump really thinks he can play the game of POTUS without thoroughly understanding the rulebook first (which I really do think is what he did here), well, god help all of us.

    And I really think that his most public supporters have to eat crow and own up to the fact that, already, even as president-elect, he's showing his tendency to be out of control. Trying to continually cover up for him and put a smiley face on it all is just not going to help. We're not in the campaign anymore - this neophyte is going to be running the country - and he seems to think he already is. The people he trusts need to be the ones that nip his impulsiveness in the bud, before he really causes damage.
    WilliamM likes this.

    BOZO T CLOWN Count

    Yeah, his most public supporters are eating crow about the stock market zooming to an all-time high since the election, consumer confidence at a 10-year high, and keeping Carrier Air Conditioner in Indiana saving over 1000 jobs. Liberals call that out-of-control. The American people call that confidence and competence!

    America Will Be Great Again
    49 days to go


    pubic_assistance likes this.
  16. WilliamM

    WilliamM Regent

    Kenny has not posted here in a week when his ban was commuted by Guy/Daddy.

    So please stop the out-of-date references
  17. purplekow

    purplekow Regent

    One would guess you are not a diplomat. In diplomatic circles strategic inconsistencies and subtlety are the pieces of the game. trump has the inconsistencies down but not the subtlety. China saying mr trump was shrewd is not a complement though it may seem to be. Shrewdness is colored with dishonesty and underhandedness. So while China may take a bigger swipe at Taiwan, their leadership is none too pleased with this break in protocol.
    If you believe trump was elected to shake things up you may get your wish. Poking at nuclear armed countries which are in delicate balance, such as India Pakistan, China Taiwan, North Korea South Korea etc, may have real consequences and Washington may not be the only place shook up.

    As to the sale of arms, much of the sales are for parts and items such as minesweepers. 1.3 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to the 20 billion or so a year we sell to Saudi Arabia. All sorts of military equipment has been sold to Taiwan, by every President since the One China policy was initiated. No President has spoke in public to a leader of Taiwan in all that time.
    Some of my male Sicilian relatives are married but known to have goomara. Sleeping with another woman is one thing, but bringing them to dinner on Sunday is something else. mr trump brought the goomara to dinner by accepting that phone call. An Italian wife so insulted may be a bigger threat to life and limb than the military might of China, but there was no reason to accept the phone call. One would imagine, mr trump was played. Perhaps he will not be so easily duped the next time. Time will tell.
    Lookin likes this.
  18. purplekow

    purplekow Regent

    Just to make it clear. The DJ was at an all time high before the election It got higher yes.
    The Carrier deal is just that, a deal. An Indiana based company (Hello mr pence) with strong ties to the military loses 700 jobs while keeping some jobs which are not guaranteed to stay. Those jobs number less than 900. This was done as Carrier accepted special tax breaks the kind of which mr trump campaigned against and said were stupid and do no work. So was he wrong then or now?
    latbear4blk and WilliamM like this.

    BOZO T CLOWN Count

    GOP lawmakers praise Trump for Taiwan call

    So summing up, Mr. Trump's supporters and GOP legislators are universal in their praise of Mr. Trump taking the call from the Taiwanese President. But PuprpleKow, QuottheRaven, a lefty college Professor, and the head of a democrat SuperPac say it was a mistake. I wonder whose counsel the President-elect will take?

    In his appointments and his actions, even before he is inaugurated, Mr. Trump has made more good progress than Obama did for the past 8 years. The liberals are already citing this as an example of poor diplomacy by Trump. Au contraire, the President-elect is softening up the Politburo for the coming trade renegotiations....

    The Chinese are guilty of stealing our intellectual property time and time again. Violating our copyrights, spying on the Defense Department and dumping items on the U.S. Market. Not to mention their gross human rights record. So what, that the Chinese complain? Who's listening? When is China gonna reel in that fat North Korean dictator who disrespects and threatens world security with his nukes? They have been propping up his lunatic family for three generations.

    Oh Hum... China's upset...Muah! US media all 'atwitter' because the President Elect answers a phone call from Taiwan's President... I just don't understand the double standards of the liberals in this country. What was Mr. Trump supposed to do, hang up on her??? Oh No! We're now going to have World War 3 (according to our dishonest media with their fake news)... Does anyone detect a whole lot of (faux) "nervous Nellies here", besides me? Does anyone else see "mountains being made out of mole hills" here, besides me? Wow! The Obama administration, the UN, and the media really need to chill... They all should take a Xanax... Immediately... Correct?

    President-elect Trump is going to get hammered from the left no matter what he does. He's shaking out the rugs to get rid of the mites that have been burdening us. He is doing the Lord's work trying to make America Great Again.

    America Will Be Great Again
    48 days to go


    RockyMount and pubic_assistance like this.
  20. bigjoey

    bigjoey Duke

    Not sure why the reference is "out-of-date" just because Kenny is temporarily banned. You and all the others here understood the reference about your "Kenny-like" post.
    MikeBiDude likes this.