Discussion in 'Politics, Religion & War Issues' started by jjkrkwood, Dec 15, 2016.
Pravda is left-wing? News to me.
I also question the reflexive distaste for society, as opposed to relatives and friends, providing assistance. Wealth is not a sign of morality or divine approval (sometimes it's the opposite) and poverty is not a sign of immorality or divine disapproval. Having a strong social safety net is good for everyone in the long run. (For one thing, it prevents the imposition of higher costs later on.)
Social welfare programs that are available to all are part of what binds us together and reminds us we're all Americans, not just the fortunate ones.
Thank you for this response. I didn't see it until late last night.
I prefer to work from knowledge, not assumptions. I had written you off, though, because you have ignored previous attempts on my part to engage with you on other topics.
As for the subject at hand, I underline the difference between prohibiting personal harassment based on ethnicity, sexual orientation and the like and free speech, and otherwise refer you to my response to @bigjoey above.
There's just no reason to choose between individual compassion and government compassion. Both are good, and together they're even better.
I think it makes all the sense in the world to build redundancy into something as important as making sure we're all OK. If someone feels left out, you can bet that person will not only be unhappy, but will eventually cause unhappiness for the rest of us.
That's what has brought me to the general conclusion that someone who is stuck at either-or, black-or-white, them-or-me, has not yet finished solving the problem. The work has got to continue until there's enough for both.
Sorry to go off on a diatribe, but this is one of those life lessons that took me a looong time to learn and it amazes me how often it's at the heart of so many problems.
Thanks for winding me up, QTR.
If government doesn't look out for all of us no matter what our current situation is, what's it good for?
You just pointed out the central conceit in American conservatism. They do not think the government should look out for anyone so it isn't good for anything.
Your charge is so simplistic that it's pathetic. Constitutional conservatives most definitely believe that the federal government is good for something, primarily its two primary missions as laid out in the Constitution: encouragement of commerce and national defense. Many conservatives that government should play a role in helping Americans out of poverty, but more on the state and local level: programs like school choice, development of trade schools, and job training programs. Despite 50 years spent fighting the War on Poverty, the federal government's track record for lifting Americans out of poverty is highly debatable, and arguably deplorable (to use Hillary Clinton's favorite word) considering the more than $20 trillion spent. Because what the federal government is currently doing to lift Americans out of poverty isn't working -- a record-shattering number of Americans on food stamps hardly qualifies as a win -- most conservatives believe we need to revamp our approach to this so-called War on Poverty. We can discuss the successes & failures of today's programs and possible ways to effect change, or you can just launch simplistic attacks on conservatives. Hey, you're the moderator. It's up to you.
Vicente Fox Quesada @VicenteFoxQue Jan 6
TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.
Vicente Fox Quesada @VicenteFoxQue Jan 6
Trump may ask whoever he wants, but still neither myself nor Mexico are going to pay for his racist monument. Another promise he can't keep.
Oh this is going to be good....
Well, of course, no it's not.
"The Wall" may very well just get mired down in useless negotiation/debate/budgetary issues and never come to fruition, period. With lots of time wasted discussing it.
If the project actually is approved and built, there is no doubt that WE, the taxpayers (many of whom did NOT want such a wall) will be stiffed for it. Period.
Because no one is going to be able to force Mexico to play for the fucking wall. We'll be in a war with Mexico before that ever happens...and I wouldn't be surprised if we do indeed get to the point of at least a threat of such a war.
In whatever case, it's going to wind up a botched project - much like the supposed repeal/replace of Obamacare, etc. Whatever trump and the republicans try to do in these cases, I think we'll end up in much worse shape than we are now.
Donald Trump came up with a very ingenious way of getting Mexico to pay for the wall: the U.S. will block remittances sent from the U.S. to Mexico unless Mexico pays for the wall. Remittances to Mexico total about $25 billion a year, and some years Mexico gets more money from remittances than from its oil industry. Will the government of Mexico be willing to risk the hardship and civil unrest caused if remittances are cut off?
I have no idea if this wall will get built or not. On one hand, funding a $20 billion (estimates are all over the place, I'm going with a high-end estimate because government projects are usually over budget) project with just 52 Senators won't be that easy. On the other hand, Trump's new coalition will go absolutely apeshit if the wall doesn't get built. Who knows?
You know, I wonder. We will see - but I do wonder to some extent whether all the rally cry nonsense during the campaign was just that - nonsense that was clearly designed to be 100% entertainment (much like WWF "wrestling" or reality shows in general - where part of the fun of it is that you know how fake it all is, and yet it doesn't matter). I'm sure there is a percentage of trumpers who want that wall built. But I also bet there's a good percentage of trumpers who just enjoyed getting to shout "build that wall" (or "lock her up" for that matter) without really thinking it was ever actually going to happen.
And, trump, who clearly is an expert on creating mass confusion with various interpretations of "the truth," can easily waffle between the practical pursuit of "the wall" and the more idealized entertainment fantasy of the same.
I bet it won't get built. And that trump, who did once boast that he could shoot someone in the street and not lose votes over it, will still come off smelling like a trump.
Bozo said this in another thread. Remittances to Mexico from the USA (sent by legals and illegals) represent a huge cash cow for them (25 billion sounds about right). Levy a 30% tax on that and we're talking about some real money. We can also take some of the tens of thousands of Mexicans currently incarcerated for non-violent offenses in US prisons, and put them to work building the wall on some type of early work-release program before we ship them home. That would drive the Mexican government crazy knowing that their own citizens would be building the wall.
The President-elect is a brilliant and incredibly successful businessman. He'll figure out a way to build the Great Wall of Trump with as little cost to US taxpayers as possible.
América será grande otra vez
13 días restantes
El señor Bozo
When Ann Coulter was asked if she was in favor of building a border fence between the U.S. and Mexico, Coulter replied, "Absolutely! In fact, to save money, I think we should have illegals build the wall and then deport them all when it's finished."
Ann Coulter is one of those rarities in life. A great combination of brains, beauty, and common sense. AND she's single!!
She's one of the few women for whom Bozo would turn straight (Michelle Bachmann, Elizabeth Hasselback, Kayleigh Mcenany, Stacy Dash, and Ivanka Trump are some of the others).
America Will Be Great Again
13 days to go
Taxation and forced labor based on nationality (or even on the destination of remittances) is constitutionally dubious.
More campaign rhetoric...Trump attacked Romney for being to hard on immigration, a inconvenient little fact you ignore...and now? . For the Trumpster it was just a simplistic campaign slogan to rally the troops and that even the uneducated among his supporters could understand. "I love the poorly educated'
The Devils in the details Senor Clown.
Remittances fall under the patriot law, and any attempt to seize or tax those funds would be immediately challenged in court, and if by some chance they found a way to track every bit of payment sent by Western Union, it could have a devastating impact on the Mexican economy, possibly having the opposite affect and driving more people from Mexico to the US, not to mention the impact it would have on companies like Western Union.
Right now immigration is at a net loss, more people leaving than coming, do you want to reverse that? Recent polls show 58% of the people are opposed to even building the wall (I'm assuming yourself excluded) lol. And if by some chance he tried to put something forth, our budget would take about a 10 billion dollar hit immediately. The Republicans would never approve that.
More hypocrisy, more foolishness, it's a non issue. Now if building the wall will keep some of those cute dancer boys from leaving, then count me in.
And as for your love for Ann Coulter...
Vincente Fox: "TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it......Trump may ask whoever he wants, but still neither myself nor Mexico are going to pay for his racist monument. Another promise he can't keep."
President-elect Trump: "The wall just got ten feet higher"
America Will Be Great Again
13 days to go
P.S. Sorry to tell you Vincente, but Mexico will pay HUGE!
Mr. Trump: "It will be the greatest wall ever... I mean ever!"
Now I'm off to Le Boy to see some of those cute little "illegal" dancer boys...
Pence is praying for you to see the error of your ways and go straight. You then will be a great American citizen and worthy of all he and Trump are doing to Make America Great and Straight.
Separate names with a comma.